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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 736
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, I see the "Fix is in again for downtown."
When will we ever be done with this money pit?
How many times does DT have to be reinvented?
When is enough enough?
Could we petition the council to say this is the last time?
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1392
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 07:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fix, for what, so they think that is going to draw tourists and the like downtown?! Hardly. If it wasn't for the True Value there wouldn't be a downtown even.
Why doesn't the owner and yes I know who owns the old Falk Drug, finish that project. That building is looking like H.
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 737
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I foresee grants and low interest loans in his future.
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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jackburton
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Username: jackburton

Post Number: 26
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know I live in a bubble, and I don't read the paper anymore. But what is DT and it's connection to downtown?
With our new street from the Dairy Queen to 1st avenue, I am reminded of all the charm and secenic beauty of Superior WI. If that is what is in store for TH, you can scratch the idea of scenic Two Harbors. Did it need to be so wide all the trees had to go? To what puropse is it that wide? None is my guess. The area around the library, churches, court house, 3M building, park and bandshell used to be really beautiful. It gave the town a small town charm. Now it's an eyesore. Sorry, but that is one man's opinion. I'm sure many are terribly offended!
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tom_koehler
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Username: tom_koehler

Post Number: 492
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 05:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is my understanding that most of the work will be paving and fixing whatever sewer and water pipes are under the street. So, it is supposed to be a utility and pavement project, like 6th Street was. And sidewalks, too. Not much else can be done to that area, except put in some concrete planters with trees in them. Nothing in the story about storefronts being remodeled, or anything like that. The storefronts are pretty u.g.l.y though, and could stand a change, maybe back to about a 1925 appearance.

Jack, I'm guessing that DT is directly connected to DownTown.

I have my own idea about our downtown block, but it is really farfetched. It would be pretty nifty if done, though, but that will be the subject of another posting, with a picture.
tom koehler
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tom_koehler
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Username: tom_koehler

Post Number: 493
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 06:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, you know by now I have a pretty thick skin, and it is fairly hard to insult me. Now, for your entertainment, I submit to you my idea for an improved downtown block. The bubble is the first part, and all else that would be done could happen while protected from the weather.

Downtown revitalization is an idea often spoken of and not often acted upon, because of its expense. Once upon a time, our downtown was an old-fashioned looking town, with the brown brick fronts, and set-in doorways, with a large picture window facing the street. A program provided some money to re-do our downtown, and the result is what you see there, now, with no particular theme or pattern. We have been looking at it for so long, we do not even see it any more. I have heard some cutting remarks by visitors, from time to time, though. No need to repeat any of them, but it is sufficient to know that they were ungenerous.
It is easy for me to talk about doing something, when it is not me who must bear the doing of it, and I apologize for that. I will continue, nonetheless.
Some years ago, I’d had an idea kicking around, about putting a dome of sorts, over our downtown. It is only a block long and very manageable, I thought. I’d even made up a picture of sorts, just to see what it could look like. The idea being that such an enclosure would provide a roof over the street, a means of letting the sun do its work to warm up the interior somewhat, shield the storefronts from the worst of the weather’s effects, provide a sheltered venue for sales, dances, and any other events conducted downtown and at the mercy of our weather.
Such a structure would be free-standing and supporting its own weight and any likely other loads from wind and weather and snow. This bubble, dome or roof would have a steel structure and a transparent skin not unlike the greenhouse covering at Anderson’s on 7th Avenue. I have a covering like this on my own little greenhouse. The variety I have is a full inch thick, and has a UV protective coating on its outer skin.
This structure could be made in such a way as to allow each building on First Avenue to tie in to the main shell to form one big enclosure that could keep out the wind and rain and snow - except for the street openings on each end, and the bank drive-throughs on each side in the middle. These openings would be fitted with doors which could be closed if it was desired to actually create an indoor environment for special events.
A protected main street such as this would be an attraction in its own right, but would allow a renovation of our downtown to recreate the appearance of the street as it might have been several generations ago. The costly work would be protected from the worst ravages of our weather, and much of the actual labor could be done without the concerns of rain and wind and mud driving up the costs of construction, once the “dome” was in place.
I know that there would be liability issues of several sorts, when different buildings are connected together. There is the biggest single issue, the cost of such a structure, and then the subsequent maintenance of it. The legal hurdles alone could kill this idea, even if the money were immediately available. All locations on both sides of the block would have to opt-in for this to work. I think it is an idea worth considering, though. It could give us a downtown environment which no other small town has. A street in a bubble is worth thinking about.

You will notice in this picture that it was done at a time when the hideous house trailer buildings were not up, and the Coke sign was still covered on the side of the photo studio.

tom koehler




downtown bubble
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bassman
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Username: bassman

Post Number: 928
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 03:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well you are at least thinking out side of the box so to speak Tom.

If I recall right from way back when, I think that most of the business in that one block area have flat roofs. If that is the case, how is all the rain and snow that will come off the bubble get off those roofs?
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webman
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Username: webman

Post Number: 833
Registered: 08-1999


Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 07:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fremont Street in Las Vegas has a roof over it. They do incredible things there. :-)
The trouble with life is, there's no background music.
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todd_r
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Username: todd_r

Post Number: 98
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 08:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Build it (and provide alcohol), and they will come.

Seriously, the chamber newsletter announces the next Waterfront District meeting, Jan 13, 8:00 AM at the Moose.
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tom_koehler
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Username: tom_koehler

Post Number: 494
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You raise an excellent point, Bassman, and I don't know how the runoff or the snow would be handled.
tom koehler
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homeontherange
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Username: homeontherange

Post Number: 559
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If the Vikings move out of the dome, perhaps we could get a good buy on the dome, and just cover most all of downtown.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 740
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You throw all the money you want to at DT (D = down, T = town. Get it?) but you can not buy customers. If you go to any thriving business, you will find it was established were there is a ready supply of customers. Just because someone thinks it should be so does not make it so. A new business moved into DT. Why? If they wanted to be near the lake and have customers, they should have built their business in Grand Maris. But there is competition in Grand Maris there is no competition in TH. Yeah, but there are no customers either. If you want to sell a product in TH, move your business to 7th Ave. And if any of you think that the proposed marina will be the Saviour of DT, go to Knife River and ask the business owners there what they think.
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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jerry_n
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Username: jerry_n

Post Number: 222
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Downtown Vegas is spectacular! but it came with a spectacular price.. $12 million I believe... I like the idea of a theme storefront across first avenue.. maybe old west or something from TH early beginnings.

What I really think would be great is to turn downtown around.. what I mean is to turn the south side of first avenue around overlooking the lake.. move the Malley over by the 3 spot.. and extend the downtown to the south of the parking lot behind the Legion... I realize looking at the ore docks isnt the most scenic but it is part of our heritage and can be incorporated into the theme.

I also understand the cost would be prohibitive but whats the alternative? 7th avenue. and there isnt a lot of real estate available there anymore.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1400
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You know what else needs to be done with your plan Jerry, is cut down all those tree's that have grown up, as all those scrubby looking tree's do block the view.
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 742
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Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 05:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LOL, Jerry. Most of you guys are too young to remember the big storefront "theme" that took place in, I think, the late 60's. So this low interest of grand money was thrown at DT TH and they went out and hired the person that did the work on Vallyfair. So they spent good money and had all this shitz put on their store fronts. Looked like nothing TH ever was and within a few years the masonite it was made of started to separate and the paint started peeling and DT looked like a mess. It hasn't been the same since. Ufda.
It's over for DT TH. What are we going to do? Throw more money at it so people can sell moccasins, t-shirts and sweat shirts for 4 months a year? Wake up people. How long is the chamber going to wag this dog?

BTW; You all should have seen how impressive the Commercial State Bank was before it was redone. Wow.

(Message edited by frosted_flakes on December 21, 2009)
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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jerry_n
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Post Number: 224
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Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 07:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do remember the "facelift" that downtown got. I also remember the Commercial State Bank before it was redone... granted I was pretty young but I do remember. I also remember when they cut down all the trees on First Avenue and the uproar it caused. (Grandparents lived on First Avenue, in fact, after grandpa died, we sold the house to Erwin but that is whole different rant). I remember the old trees were like a canopy over First Avenue... really scenic.. but the new trees they planted came in pretty nicely.

FF, if DT is dead, where do we put our business district while still maintaing the small town feel. 7th Avenue? I dont think so for a host of reasons including theres just not enough real estate AND do we really want to be a "mini St. Cloud"? I sure dont.

Revitalizing our commercial (retailers) enterprises is not going to be an easy task. Too many people go to Duluth to shop. I am as guilty as anyone. Back in the day, TH had what we all needed. Think about the Tepee, Nelson Brothers, Lauralee, Ben Franklin, Falks Drug, Gambles, Erickson-McDonald Hardware Store, Lex Bakery, Gould Jewelry, the Mans Store, Ships Galley, Monkey Wards catalog store, Seagrens Flowers, Harbor Theater... I could go on and on but the point is, in order to keep retailers viable in TH, we need to attract customers as well as try to shop locally. ( I swear that Bob at True Value has EVERYTHING under the sun, it is VERY hard to stump him).

So the question is, how do we expand our customer base. There has to be something to bring in, and retain, outside money. The marina may be a start but we certainly can't bank on it.

I dont have the answers to all this, never claimed to but it is food for thought.. and maybe, just maybe if enough people come up with ideas, something can be accomplished.

Instead of being a naysayer and a pessimist, lets look for optimistic answers... we can only help ourselves, no one else is going to.

Sorry if I sounded like Tony Robbins......
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 743
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Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 01:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Instead of being a naysayer and a pessimist, lets look for optimistic answers
Jerry, you may call it being a naysayer and a pessimist, but I call it being a realist. First of all, there is not enough of a customer base here the warrant a retail district. Yes, Duluth shopping hurt TH retail, but another big hit was when the ore boats stopped making a call here. They were a big customer base for DT. Ask the merchants that tried to make a go of it in Pearson's garage. There just are not enough customers. They saw the light on the first Black Friday they were in business. Biggest shopping day of the year and no one showed up.
You ask; "how are we going to expand our customer base." There is only one way, tourism. But are you going to run a business district on a bases of customers coming just 4 months of the year? If you are going to have a business that locals are going to use, you have to sell everyday needs. Can you see people driving to TH to buy everyday needs? No. They will, you will and I will drive to Duluth were there is a large selection. And let me ask you this; when is the last time you were on vacation and said, "Oh! Honey! Lets go and look at the down town district. I am fresh out of socks and you could sure use some new panty hose."? But people will pull into a Target to buy tooth paste or bottled water while on the road. That's just the way it is. Tourists are not interested in shopping for everyday needs while on vacation, and if they are, they do not ask; "Where's the shoe store." They ask; "Where's K-Mart." There just is not a local customer base for DT TH. And why do you think we NEED to have a DT business district? TH has gotten along, just fine, without one for, what, 40 years?
But go ahead, build marinas, festoon DT with horns and whistles, build special roads to no where and what will you have? Do I need to tell you? You will have status quo. Same-o same-o. You will have DT TH all dressed up and no one coming to the dance. You will have ear rings on a pig, so to speak. Every 10 years, or so, someone pops up wanting to reinvent DT TH and it's always the same. Some times things can not be the way you think they should be.
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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bassman
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Username: bassman

Post Number: 930
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Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 12:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

With that attitude Frosty, there will never be a DT TH. I have to agree with Jerry and Tom Koehler's idea of thinking outside of the box.

A battery has a negative and a positive. The positive needs a negative ground to work, but the negative by itself does nothing....
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jerry_n
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Post Number: 225
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Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 06:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FF,

I understand your rationale for downtown but yet, I think you contradict yourself a bit. You say that there is only one way to expand customer base and thats tourism. I agree that is a huge portion of it. But, I know that when we go someplace, we (my wife) loves to go to small shops that have the towns heritage intertwined with their products. I think that business model works pretty good in towns like Grand Marais and Hayward WI. But, those towns are destination towns. We need to make Two Harbors a destination. People need to want to come here and STAY here for their vacation. That really is the big variable in this equation.

Otherwise, we might as well invite Walmart in here, hire 50 people at $8.00 an hour and close all the "mom and pops". People in this community dont want that. They like the small town feel. If someone can "make a dime" selling, as you put it, "people can sell moccasins, t-shirts and sweat shirts for 4 months a year" what is wrong with that. In my travels, those little shops have been quite busy when I was in there.

But the key is to make TH a destination. How we do that is question and avenue we should be going down. Heritage Days is a prime example... now, if we could do that all summer..... NIRVANA!
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 744
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Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bassman and Jerry,
Is there a need for DT TH? No. Pure and simple. If there were a need for one, we would have a DT TH right now. The only need for a DT is in people's minds. Too bad it is your minds and not in the minds of all the people driving north on 35. You are trying to put people where you think they should be. Why in the world do you think shoppers and shops have to be on 1st ave? Did the mountain go to Mohamed or did Mohamed go to the motion? The people are on 7th ave. What are the 3 most important things in business? Location, location and location. But never mind that, put your business on 1st and cry because no one comes there. Ask the local government to, "Please, please make people come to my business. Be stubborn. Don't go where the traffic is. Make everyone come to you. Yeah, that's a real good business plan. Throw some tax money at DT now and in 10 years we can have the same conversation.
You want a business district? Buy all the property from the DQ to the Standard station between 7th and Skunk Creek. Make everything from 7th to the alley parking. Make the land from the alley to 6th stores. Make the land from 6th to Skunk Creek park land. Then you would have a business district where the customers are.
And I resent you thinking that just because someone does not think the same as you or see things through you eyes, they are being negative. There are different opinions on most every subject. I do not call you stupid because you want to build up DT, even though, in my opinion, it is stupid.
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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jackburton
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Username: jackburton

Post Number: 28
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gee Frosted Flakes. Those were a couple of good posts! Business is first and foremost based on what the customer wants. If you don't give it to him where, when and how he wants it, your business is going to fail. Why did Down Town TH die? We had everything you can imagine right on that 600 block on first and two streets running off of it. Why did it die. Did government fail, did people get negative or did customers GO AWAY? Guess what the answer is! Yes, customers went away. The big stores in Duluth took them away, the disappearance of good paying jobs killed the TH consumer, population loss cut the size of the customer base. It's that simple. It's hard not to know this if you have lived your whole life here. I watched the slow death of down town. Every small town Down Town in America ,save a few special cases, died.
If there was a market to serve and profit to be made, then capitalists would flock to open businesses in Down town TH. There are customers in TH, they are on 7th avenue or driving to Duluth. How does a local merchant compete with Walmart? I'll tell you how. He doesn't!
Trying to pound a square peg [600-block 1st] into a round hole [customer base] is a waste of time. Government is NOT responsible for trying to take people's tax money and spend it to try and force some kind of down town revival. And with the economic future we face, I give you ZERO % possibility of success. There is a small niche down here, and there is room for some small business to survive. But it is up to business to build a business model that works. It is not the taxpayers duty to fund some crazy scheme to divert a major highway onto 1st avenue or remodel private store fronts.
I'll be the first to admit that old down town is a disaster and the creeping blight just grows and grows. It grows because there is no customer base or demand down here. That is free enterprise at work. The businesses goes where the money is or they go away.
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frosted_flakes
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Post Number: 745
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Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you Jack. Thank you for having the intestinal fortitude to risk being called negative or worse. I know there are many that think as we do, but in cases such as this the only voices you are apt to hear are those clamoring for something to be done.
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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tom_koehler
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Post Number: 496
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Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 02:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There are different kinds of customers,and the businesses that cater to them are different.

Our hardware store is the "Everything Store" and I shop there as often as I can, before deciding to go elsewhere. If the price on something might be higher there (not always the case, by the way) than in Duluth, I will still go there because of the kinds of costs that are not reflected in the price tag - costs paid when shopping in Duluth: Personal time lost in traveling, cost of operating the car, potential for traffic accident any time I'm in any car and regardless of who is driving.

I will shop at our local jar store for the same reason.

There are some places I will not shop at because of some personal baggage I am not willing to set down. I will keep those items to myself so as not to poison the attitude of others.

There are businesses in the downtown area that could probably do well anywhere.

There are businesses on the 7th Avenue corridor which are utterly dependent upon through-traffic.

I think there are businesses on 7th Avenue which could do just as well elsewhere, as long as their location is known or easily found with adequate signage.

If the downtown district is to remain viable, we have to figure out what kinds of customers would be willing to leave 7th Avenue. We also have to figure out what kinds of businesses are not utterly dependent upon the kind of through-traffic that is found on 7th Avenue.

I am still steamed about a few things: An exercise business that needed a larger space was encouraged to build a new edifice on the State Road, instead of fixing up an existing building in the core of our old business district. It would seem to me that the agency or organization that facilitated her establishment on the State Road was more interested in building new than fixing up the old. The city has been hemming and hawing about a new place for the jar store, and is being influenced to build a new place rather than recycling an existing building in the downtown area. The liquor store will do well wherever it is, and will need a sign to direct its customers, wherever it goes to. Why not downtown? Our Chamber of Commerce is actively promoting only its own members, probably as it should. That is its business, rather than promoting the town. So, with that in mind, why has the Chamber been in a position to pretend it is promoting the whole town? When operating the information booth, it will only give information about its member businesses to inquiring tourists, rather than the information the tourist really wants. Chamber booklets regularly published extolling the virtues of our town are specifically limited to Chamber of Commerce members, yet the booklets give the distinct impression of representing the entire area.

Many of the old downtown businesses were lost when the family connection was lost either through retirement or death. Fire took out some more places. Our jeweler was done in by cheap electric watches and a change in the way we buy the kinds of things he sold. American made shoes are too expensive and the rest of the shoes are available more cheaply and in wider variety elsewhere than our shoe store could provide. Yes, increasing mobility and "big box" stores like Pamida and Mallwart helped drive nails in the local business coffin.

Bob recognized a need, saw and took an opportunity (and its associated risks), and is working his butt off - making the hardware store a success. The banks could exist anywhere and fit nicely in the downtown. Dunagin's is a good fit for the area, and so is the restaurant and DoNorth pizza. The Legion Club is a good fit as long as it continues to be a public venue. I think the antique shop will do well downtown, as the likely customers of that kind of business are willing to go off the heavily trafficked highway in search of their treasures. The photo studio and art gallery are also a good fit to downtown, for about the same reasons as the antique shop.

Do you see any kinds of patterns? Museums, galleries, antique shops, places to eat and drink all can do their business without having thousands of cars going by every day. Pedestrian traffic from the tourist trains, and traffic from people who are willing to find what they want if they know where to look, are a large part of the customer base which will serve downtown businesses. In the event that a marina becomes a reality, there is a good chance of more traffic to the downtown area businesses if there is something there that people want. It would not hurt if these places were a bit more inviting when seen from the waterfront side.

I still like the idea of a roof or bubble of some kind over the one block of first avenue. The rainwater runoff can be easily handled. Bassman's concerns about the winter snowload are still a problem. I believe that the existing flat roofs were made to handle whatever snowload they would get, anyway, and the prevailing winds will do a lot towards relieving the snowload from the "bubble" roof. That is a shaky response to the snowload issue, I know. An answer can be found, I am certain. (another shaky response, I know)
tom koehler
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charlie_t
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Post Number: 235
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 05:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LL Bean, Target.com,, UPS and FEDEX, you can get anything you need like clothing, shoes, sporting goods, and so on at competitive prices delivered to your front door. And why go out when there is nowhere to gather unless you want to socialize in a bar and risk your freedom? I sometimes wonder why the whole town isn't in jail. Or in therapy.

And as for fun local specialty stores, galleries, niche restaurants and other places to meet for a little socializing, McD's serves the budget and culinary taste of the community just fine. Too bad for me. Lord give me a Taco! A bowl of Pho (perfect vietnamese soup, totally addictive), Italian, Polish, ANYTHING!! Do North is one good spot . . .

If Two Harbors cannot grow and add new businesses that add a thousand new jobs to this town there will never be the demand to make the town a viable place to run a small service business. It will stay just like it is. No businesses, no jobs, no people, no money, nothing but tourists.

That's OK with me, but somehow Grand Marais seems to be a lot more fun.
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frosted_flakes
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Post Number: 746
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Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe I will have to start calling you the "bubble boy," Tom. Oh, wait. That was already used in Seinfeld. LOL
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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strwblue
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Post Number: 626
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Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 11:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Travolta in the "Boy in the plastic bubble" Classic
Disclaimer: In as much as I am the Two Harbors Public Access Coordinator I am not now or have I ever spoken for the City of Two Harbors on this board.
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frosted_flakes
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Post Number: 749
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Posted on Thursday, December 24, 2009 - 05:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Perhaps the bubble is a good way to look at it. DT in a bubble looking out where the real world is.
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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charlie_t
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Post Number: 236
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Posted on Friday, December 25, 2009 - 09:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The real world, it's those damn Moops again . . .
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blondie
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Post Number: 1404
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Posted on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 02:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

charlie-t speaking of Grand Marais, we were up there for the holidays, and their downtown was decorated just beautiful with Cmas lights, even the side streets that go off the downtown main street were decorated. It truly was beautiful!
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blondie
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Post Number: 1405
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Posted on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 06:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmmm, this I did not know, heard this today. That there is a city ordinace that requires a person to get permission to cut down or plant a tree on their lot! When did this go into effect?
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strwblue
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Post Number: 628
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Posted on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 11:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Blondie -

The 1st reading of the Two Harbors Tree Ordinance was April 27, 2009

The 2nd reading of the Two Harbors Tree Ordinance was May 11, 2009

The 3rd and final reading of the Two harbors Tree Ordinance was May 26, 2009 Ordinance No. 3-108-09

There were also many many many discussion about the Tree Ordinance during both city council meetings and Trees & Trails Commission. There was a public hearing I believe. Although I can remember when it was. Only that I believe it was at the Community Center and I think Planning and Zoning Committee was there. (but not sure)

I don't remember how long after the final reading and recording of the ordinance it goes into effect. I would be it is by now tho.

P.S. At this time I would direct you to my disclaimer at the bottom of all my posts.
Disclaimer: In as much as I am the Two Harbors Public Access Coordinator I am not now or have I ever spoken for the City of Two Harbors on this board.
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webman
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Post Number: 839
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Posted on Monday, December 28, 2009 - 07:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The usual ignorance is no excuse line, but still, unless a person kept reasonably close tabs on Council proceedings, how in the world would anyone know about this ordinance and why would anyone even think as they are considering planting a new tree, "Gee, I bet I should check with the City about this."

I did a quick look on the City website for ordinances, but I don't see any. There's a link to "Draft Ordinances" but nothing there either.
The trouble with life is, there's no background music.
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jackburton
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Post Number: 29
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Monday, December 28, 2009 - 07:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

frosted flakes, speaking of bubbles and Down Town, I can't help but remember Sam Cave, the Condo projects, the law suit , the marina and all the hopes for waterfront development. A bubble is what the vacation home and condo development craze of the last 10 years was. It may be that the TH residents that made Mr. Cave fight to get his zoning and TIF districts really did Mr. Cave a big favor. Had he gotten the go ahead when he wanted it a few years back, he would be just now putting those new condos up for sale. The potential losses trying to sell 500 thousand dollar and up condos into this market would have be big. Very, very big. He must look back and be grateful he was held up before he got anything built.
This is just my guess, but I can't see any reason why he would build now even if he won his court case and could find financing. Strange how things work out. We might have saved him a fortune.
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blondie
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Post Number: 1407
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Posted on Monday, December 28, 2009 - 09:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If I or anyone wants to cut down a tree in their yard, why the heck should the city care in the first place, as long as it is cleared away.

Make more Ordinances and they don't even enforce the ones they have had in place for years, sure doesn't make any sense to me. If they did, our town wouldn't look like it does today!!
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jerry_n
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Post Number: 227
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Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 06:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Our history is very important to me, and dowtown, like it or not, is a huge part of that history. Why not try to keep it viable. Nobody is saying that it will be easy. And as I stated before, so what if it is a knick knack shop or someone is selling tshirts, it is still a business. I am not looking at these businesses as a source of tax revenue per se. I am looking at businesses that could sustain tourists that make TH a destination, instead of quick gas stop and fast food meal.

Not to shoot holes in your 7th avenue theory FF, but what are you going to do if those residents between the DQ and Amoco say they are not selling, that this is their home. Force them to sell with Eminent Domain? and, following your line of thinking, what businesses could you put on one side of a block and a half. And where would the parking be? Those ideas can be addressed but I would think you would have to buy the whole north side of 6th avenue as well. Now, we are talking some real dollars. Not that my idea wouldnt cost a boatload of money, because it would.

This is part of thinking outside the box and coming up with ideas to make TH a destination. Thats my whole impetus here. Make TH a destination.

FF, I did not intend to offend you with my comments, if I did, I apologize. People can be on opposite sides of an issue without offending each other. I will try to watch my wording a little closer.
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jackburton
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Post Number: 30
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Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't follow the council's doings. So ignorance is my excuse.
What is the idea behind this tree ordinance? Does it serve a function worth the trouble citizens will have to go through to manage the trees on their property?

jerry_n, Eminent Domain laws were changed a few years back. It put most of the power in the hands of the property owner, unless it is a proven public good or service that needs the property. Developers have been frozen out of taking people's property for their own stores, condos or parking lots. Unless a proven public good can be shown, that doesn't include simply private gain for a developer, or the property can be shown to be blighted , it can't be taken with or without the aid of the local government. Minnesota amended their laws after the supreme court case out east that ruled in favor of developers taking people's homes in order to build more expense home developments on the same sites. The supreme court left it up to states to write property protection into their state laws. Minnesota's legislature stepped up to the plate and wrote strong protection into law for the current property owners.
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frosted_flakes
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Post Number: 752
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Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jerry, I posted that the land between 7th and the alley to the south of it would be parking. That way, there would be room for people with bigger rigs to park. How would you fill it up? It doesn't have to be filled up right away. There would be no need to buy property on the north side. The south side is the business side. When people are headed north the would stop, they are on vacation. When they are going south, they are no longer on vacation, they are on their way home. I think the land could be had. Just the money that will be used for the road to no where would get most if not all of it.
As far as DT being historic, there is nothing historic about DT. The only thing historic about it is the fact that this is where DT used to be. None of the buildings look the same nor will they ever. A good percentage of the buildings are not even there anymore. We, in TH, are ashamed of our past and tear down or remodel everything old. Historic down town Two Harbors! What a joke. You, Jerry, work in a building that occupies a space once occupied by historic Two Harbors. Did you raise a voice to save the old County jail?
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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jerry_n
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Post Number: 228
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Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 07:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FF,
So if I understand you correctly, the taxpayers should buy the land and then not put anything there? I dont see this as beneficial to anyone. At least DT has the lake and the ore docks. If you think people dont gawk over the ore docks and the ships that come and go, take a look at the breakwall park some day.

Your reply to have enough parking for big rigs indicate, at least to me, that you are satisfied with come and go traffic and not to make TH a destination. If I am wrong, please correct me.

There is a fine line between historic and falling apart. I could literally pull corner bricks out of the old jail with my hand.The building was a unsalvageable in my opinion and unsafe to work in. You should have seen the basement!!!

Maybe to you DT has no historic value but there are some of us that think it does.

I think we should just agree to disagree on this one.
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frosted_flakes
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Post Number: 754
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Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 12:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe to you DT has no historic value but there are some of us that think it does.

This is interesting. To me there are 2 small things on 1st Avenue that are historic. They would be; The painting on the inside wall from the New Life Café and the big outside thermometer on the building now occupied by Dunnigan's Pub. You might want to include the old Coke sign painted on the wall of the Levitt building. What do you find historic about DT? Take any Avenue below 7th avenue and you will find 100% more history still intact. Why don't you want to save them? May I offer a guess? Because they are not retail areas. Save "historic" DT Th is just another ploy to get you to support throwing more money at it. Jerry, don't fall for it.
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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sparky
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Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jerry - I remember that vibrant DT you described, lots for everyone to do. Only went to "the big city of Duluth" for school clothes and the Ice Capades; on Hwy 61.

Folks dropped us off at the Harbor for a Saturday matinee of Laurel and Hardy. Big time!

Merchants wanted open campus shut down for all the high school kids "causing problems" during lunch. Heady times. ;)
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charlie_t
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Post Number: 237
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Posted on Saturday, January 02, 2010 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If trees on my lots fall down on their own, does the city want me to provide a full report?

Should I pull up the Colorado Blue Spruce tree pups that I put in to replace them?

Should the city stop by my house and remove the ice that I can't break up with a garden spade? It's on their property, street side and in the alley. the next snowfall is going to cover up these ice bergs, and no one will know they are there underneath what looks like snow. I see a lot of sheet metal being ripped up if this ice is not removed, and many of us don't have tools that can do the job. I don't want to get sued . . .

Blondie - I don't understand why Grand Marais has it's art scene so much more together than we do. I wish someone could explain it to me. We have artists and musicians by the hundreds, but there is a deafening silence. If you want to see local art, you have to go find the artists and see them at their studios, Waterfront Gallery is the main exception although it's the same deal, they just are trying to do it in town. That building across from Dunnigans that was just vacated might be enough space for an artists co-op if the city wanted to help get it off the ground financially. The idea of an "Arts Commission" to add to all our other City commissions sounds like a good idea to me.
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frosted_flakes
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Post Number: 757
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Posted on Saturday, January 02, 2010 - 09:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chuck, you assume that local artists want to sell their product DT. There is an art outlet down by the Depot. I do not think it does that much business. But art is sold there. Also, they have an outlet at Pioneer Crafts. That is on 61, were the customers are.
People continue to compare Th with Grand Marais. Actually they are nothing alike. First off, GM has a large gay community. Also, GM has a true waterfront DT. You can not call our DT a waterfront location. That is a problem as people can drive right by the DT area and go to the big draw, the lake. NO, TH and GM are no way alike, yet people feel that DT TH could/should be like GM. I don't see it happening.
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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tom_koehler
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Post Number: 501
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Posted on Saturday, January 02, 2010 - 10:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jeepers, ff! Are you suggestiong that our gay community is substandard? I'm willing to bet that our gay community is every bit as good as GMs gay community.

The art outlet by the depot is actually a workshop, an art club. The club members also sell their product there. Next to the art club, in the same building is the senior citizen's workshop, mostly a woodworking shop. They sell a little bit of stuff there, too.

Grand Marais is isolated, so their downtown has to have more stuff. There is nowhere else for the folks to go, there. The nearest other town is Silver Bay. The artist community there is well established because of the Art Colony. Bunch of artsy folks settled there back in the forties - partly because it was isolated, with some of the conveniences of a town. GM was also one of the jumping-off places for "the wilderness" an attractive feature for some artsy folks with Money. Now, it is famous because it is famous.

tom koehler
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blondie
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Post Number: 1416
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Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2010 - 08:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

GM is convenient to tourists. The main street going downtown is right off Highway 61, a person can't miss their downtown, where as ours is blocks off 61.
Being the last town before the border, they are the calling card for people to stop.
We travel alot, and towns like GM are the ones we stop in, ones with several gift shops to walk through. Towns like this attract tourists and tourists leave money! I know!!!

Years ago the art club used to set up there work at the Salvation Army building, which was nice as lots of art could be displayed there. I used to belong to the club and did sell some of my work via that outlet as did others.
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blondie
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Post Number: 1418
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Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2010 - 10:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I see there is a dead deer laying on the side of the park road this morning.
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jackburton
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Post Number: 34
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Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2010 - 12:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know why people insist on making the Grand Marais comparison all the time either. The two are very different. A long standing industrial and shipping port versus an isolated wilderness community.
GM is smaller and lumber and fishing were it's old industries and tourism has become the modern one. GM is like a small New England village and it is at the gateway to the Gunflint trail. These are major pluses for it's tourism attraction. They have a vibrant downtown that just happens to be right on the waterfront. I visit there on my trips up to the BWCA and have found it jam packed with tourists. I mean jam packed! All of them going from store to store, though that isn't my bag, the lady tourists seem to love that sort of thing.
The geography of TH is far different, though we have in some way more to offer. Right from the camp ground all the way around to the Edna G. we have a hiking trail and shoreline that far outshines GM's. LHP is a jewel and attracts many thousands every week of summer and fall. The Depot, ore ships, Edna G., Light House and hiking trail beat the pants off of what GM has. It's just an accident of our industrial past that old Down Town is away from these attractions. Tourism shopping is big on 7th avenue. So I don't know what the hang up about one block on 1st having to have the stores. If we get the marina, that will be some help as it will clean up the old coal dock wasteland. Once that is in, business may feel more inclined to look at 1st avenue again. But I wouldn't put too many hopes on the marina being a money attraction. It will not be. But it will be nice to see the coal dock area cleaned up and turned into a place for pleasure boats.
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charlie_t
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Post Number: 238
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Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2010 - 05:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great stuff, thanks folks! These are two really different towns.

I just don't quite get why this town can't copy the GM arts-for-tourists model. We have the artists. I'm puzzled as to how sexual orientation got in here, I'll just let that one go. I get that our town was built on industry, and that hwy 61 was built to get tourists through here without having to see all that industrial activity.

That seems to be the crux of the problem, people never go downtown unless they need a flashlight or some cash. Or a drink or 10. That's what bothers me, there is no other gathering place other than the bars. I love bars, but most people don't. Most people liks shops and galleries and fun food places. We are a bit short on those things, and the people we have now are struggling because all the money is going right down hwy 61, some goes east, some west, but none of it goes south to downtown.

I kind of see that as our #1 civic problem.

As jackburton said "The geography of TH is far different, though we have in some way more to offer. Right from the camp ground all the way around to the Edna G. we have a hiking trail and shoreline that far outshines GM's. LHP is a jewel and attracts many thousands every week of summer and fall. The Depot, ore ships, Edna G., Light House and hiking trail beat the pants off of what GM has. It's just an accident of our industrial past that old Down Town is away from these attractions."

Maybe time for a change. Just keep the trees.
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frosted_flakes
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Post Number: 759
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Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2010 - 06:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The reason I threw in the gay community is that I think a lot of gays are in the arts. They seem to be creative.
I meant nothing disparaging to the gays. In fact, giving them credit, deserved or not.
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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todd_r
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Post Number: 103
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Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The slogan "make Two Harbors a destination" has been around a long time. What that slogan means exactly, is probably different things for different people. Either way, it's about wanting more people here, short-term, long-term or both. Personally, I'm quite content with the local population as it is. I like small town living. I don't buy into the idea that having more of anything is always better for the majority. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. To grow a small town, is to incrementally sacrifice a little bit of it, each step of the way.
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frosted_flakes
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Post Number: 760
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Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I couldn't agree more, Todd. There are factions that want to change the look and feel of TH and they make it sound as if you are a bad person if you do not want your town to change.

TH has become a destination for a large number of people over the past years. Two new motels have been built and they are filled to over flowing many months of the year. It does not seem to have made that big a difference to the rest of the business community. "Oh yes, there are those people making us a destination, but we want something else. Some other people." Well, the business community has been wanting something else ever since the RR shut down in the 60''s always something else that is going to make it better. Trouble is, it is getting to be more and more expensive things. New roads into town and marinas.

(I have tried and tried to get rid of those red dots. Supposed to read; "It's always something else..." I think the bot thinks I am trying to swear. Truth is, over the past years I have been trying not to swear.) LOL
The worm has turned, but it looks the same on both ends.
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tom_koehler
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Post Number: 503
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Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, y'know, change is not always bad. It is generally in human nature to oppose change, simply because it represents something new and unknown. Unknown stuff is scary or dangerous, and in any case means the need to learn something new, which can be a lot of work.

What has gotten me going about the Lighthouse point thing though is that this little patch of land is the last bit of publicly accessible land on the lake, and we got it. Heck, I'll help the old coot lay the first blocks in the foundation anyplace else he owns in town, but not the forested area where the trails are. I cannot imagine that he'd be able to put anything expensive overlooking the ca-ca plant, so that area should be pretty safe from building, too.

tom koehler
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jackburton
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Username: jackburton

Post Number: 36
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

TH has had a lot of change since I was born here. Very little of it good. In fact, I will rack my brains and see if I can think of one or two good things.
Coal heating was replaced with the new City Natural Gas Utility
The coal docks were torn down
The Edna G. was bought by the city

When I have more time I'll work on a list of things that changed that were bad.
The number one would be "Most good paying jobs disappeared"
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tom_koehler
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Post Number: 505
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Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

some more good things...
the industrial park, and the new businesses that are in it, another industrial growth area behind Sonju's, the 3 Spot has been repainted and fixed up nice, a good workshop for the senior citizens and an art center workshop in the same building, quite a few new homes have been built here in the past couple of decades.
There is an energetic core of people who take an active interest in what is going on here.

tom koehler
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bassman
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Username: bassman

Post Number: 935
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 08:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A very interesting article in the Chronicle about First Avenue:

http://www.twoharborsmn.com/event/article/id/19544/
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 763
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice article.
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
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nat_sherman
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Post Number: 320
Registered: 02-2007


Posted on Friday, January 08, 2010 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34436730/ns/us_news-life/

LED stoplights save energy and money, but could decrease safety and maybe even cost lives in the winter.

The article linked above says that governments are changing incandescent stoplights over to LED stoplights. The issue is that the new LED stop lights don't produce much heat. Not an issue in southern states, but in colder climates that receive snow this heat reduction is apparently not melting snow and ice like the old technology did. This has caused a traffic hazard because drivers can't see the lights.

Does TH use LED or incandescent lights in stop lights? If using LED are we experiencing the same issues? If we are still using incandescent lights we should make sure we consider the safety issue if switching to LED comes up in the future.
Magna est veritas, et praevalet
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homeontherange
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Post Number: 566
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Friday, January 08, 2010 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

While a traffic light that is out of service is a danger, common sense tells me that there are other traffic rules that apply. Why do some people think that if they can't see the light, it must be green?

The last two paragraphs summarize this fact.

"One reason there have been so few deaths is that drivers know they should treat a traffic signal with obstructed lights as a stop sign, traffic experts say."

"It's the same as if the power is out," said Dave Hansen, a traffic engineer with the Green Bay Department of Public Works. "If there's any question, you err on the side of caution."
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 764
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, January 08, 2010 - 11:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think the State is in charge of the traffic lights in TH.
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
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strwblue
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Post Number: 630
Registered: 05-2003


Posted on Friday, January 08, 2010 - 05:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

According to Positively Minnesota - Department of Employment and Economic Development.

http://www.positivelyminnesota.com/apps/lmi/laus/GeogSelect.aspx

Unemployment rates in Nov. 2009 were ..

St. Louis County 7.9%
Cook County 6.8 %
Lake County 9%

Now this is back in November because my guess is they have not updated the site for Dec. (so the numbers could be different now). So the question is why is Unemployment in Lake County so much higher? Just something to think about.
Disclaimer: In as much as I am the Two Harbors Public Access Coordinator I am not now or have I ever spoken for the City of Two Harbors on this board.
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jackburton
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Post Number: 37
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 11:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Unemployment figures are a measure of people on unemployment compensation and actively seeking work. [U-3] on unemployment charts.
[U-6] is a better measure as it includes those off the benefits rolls and discouraged workers who want full time work and can't find it.
Nation wide U-3 is 10% , U-6 is over 16%.

Lake county may just seem to have more unemployed because most people out of work are on unemployment compensation waiting to be rehired at the jobs they were laid off from. Living on the North Shore, everyone knows that if you lose a job that most likely isn't coming back soon, you have to leave the area. So my guess is, those 555 people all are hoping to go back to their jobs when the economy picks up. Our unemployment rate would drop if these people packed up and moved.
Also, St. Louis county is a regional Medical and Education center and these jobs don't get affected in a recession. Cook county simply has fewer jobs that could lay people off. So they are bound to have fewer people collecting unemployment.

Going by U-6, Lake County is probably at 15% of the labor force out of full time work but wanting full time work. I'de also guess a lot of people who lost their jobs in Lake County have already packed up and left.

(Message edited by jackburton on January 09, 2010)
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frosted_flakes
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Post Number: 765
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Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some people out of work in TH got laid off from jobs in Duluth. So they get counted as unemployed in Lake County, but, really, they are unemployed in St. Louis Co. On the other hand; More people than one would think drives to TH from Duluth to work. I think we all would be surprised at the number of people that drive to TH to work.
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
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jackburton
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Post Number: 38
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Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good point ff.
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charlie_t
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Post Number: 239
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Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 07:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So long, Rob Karwath, we'll miss you. This is the dude who fired Forest because the Chronny was "broken", and then his replacement's first words to her new staff were "the Chronicle is the highlight of our properties, the only profitable and stable one". I almost fell out of my chair. Of course I was fired soon myself, I was just there to help out Forest.

Good luck finding a job Rob, your "letters from the editor" series in the DNT on Sundays was the most vapid and pointless thing I've ever read, no connection to 'journalism". I hope that will be in your portfolio. My Sunday DNT is so sad, so empty, they just will fade away I suppose. I'll never forget the little shiny shoes over the tan "stockings" of the tightly pressed cuffed trousers Rob would wear in the Chronny production room. I thought I was in the twilight zone. I'm done now, I feel better.
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tom_koehler
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Post Number: 506
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Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 10:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I never knew Karwath well enough to like or dislike him. I did dislike his writing, though. I have really grown to dislike the whole newspaper since it was bought by the Fargo Fooler.

In an era when newspapers are crying that they are poor, and costs are going up and paper is so expensive... yet the layout of the paper reminds me of a junior high school term paper, where you would use large hand writing and wide margins and lots of white space on the page, so your paltry composition would take up lots of sheets of paper and look bigger than it really was.

So, the Trib uses lots of white space around the articles, and in the case of the recent advertisement disguised as a news article about a new cell phone that is coming out soon, they used type that was about twice the size of the type used in regular news articles, and double spaced lines and extra wide margins around the whole thing, so it filled up the bottom of the front page... I get so blasted mad i could just scream! There is next to no national news in that paper. If you don't go to the trouble of reading some other papers you have absolutely no idea what is going on in the rest of the country and the rest of the world. There is less and less content in the paper every week - and then the price of the paper went up. The only reason in the world that I still suscribe to that miserable paper is that it is the only game in town.

I have to believe that Mr. Washington is an honorable man, but he is no safer than any other person on that paper, and he had better have a backup plan ready all the time. The paper was making a profit, but not a big enough profit for the owners, so fire a couple more people. feh.
tom koehler
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sparky
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Username: sparky

Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hardly enough paper to wrap a smoked fish.
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pink
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Post Number: 149
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 01:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I love smoked fish...
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webman
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Username: webman

Post Number: 843
Registered: 08-1999


Posted on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've never been able to keep one lit. Do you roll 'em or pack 'em in a pipe? :-)
The trouble with life is, there's no background music.
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todd_r
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Post Number: 105
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Posted on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I love smoked fish too, though my wife won't let me sleep with her on account of the heavenly(my adjective) aroma.

photo, circa 1940, Knife River, MN, Ronnings Store (next door to Kendall's)

Ronnings Store
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 766
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Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 02:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I never knew that store existed. Who's the cowboy?
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
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todd_r
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Post Number: 106
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Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Who's the cowboy?

That'd be my Dad. The store closed up about 1970 or so. Kendalls own this property now.
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sparky
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Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

@todd_r did your older brother paint propane tanks for Como during the high school summers?
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todd_r
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Post Number: 107
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Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 11:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Myself, and all my brothers did.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1472
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 05:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess we don't have any dog catchers around anymore, as for a time now there have been two dogs running loose uptown, now there are three. One is a German Sheperd and a little dog, and now they have added a what looks like a golden lab.
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strwblue
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Post Number: 638
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Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 06:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Straight from the City of Two Harbors Website.


The Lake County Humane Society is located at 415 20th Avenue. Their hours are Monday, Wednesday, and Friday 9 - 11 a.m., Wednesday 5 - 7 p.m., and Saturday 1 - 3 p.m. Contact them at (218) 834-5806. Animal control officers are Stephanie Potter (218) 834-6477 and Jason Lysaker (218) 834-3194.

Animal licenses can be purchased at City Hall, 522 1st Avenue Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. A current rabies certificate must be presented at the time of purchase. Fees are $10.00 per license. If the dog or cat is spayed or neutered the license fee is reduced to $5.00. The licenses are available January 1st of each year and are valid for the calendar year.
Disclaimer: In as much as I am the Two Harbors Public Access Coordinator I am not now or have I ever spoken for the City of Two Harbors on this board.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1473
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 06:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But try call them! What a joke that is.
What happened to them driving around with Animal Control sign on their vehicle, now be honest have any of you seen this?
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strwblue
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Username: strwblue

Post Number: 639
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Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LOL.. Nope can't say I have.
Disclaimer: In as much as I am the Two Harbors Public Access Coordinator I am not now or have I ever spoken for the City of Two Harbors on this board.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1484
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 09:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am glad that the sweeper is out cleaning the streets, but wow 4:30 in the morning. Early bird gets the worm!! :-) Finally about quarter to 6 was the last time I heard it, it takes time to go from end to the other end, making more than one pass on each side. I suppose it is easier though to do it early like that when less cars are parked.
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jackburton
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Post Number: 53
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 11:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wish I remembered his name, but I remember the guy with his wheel barrow and big brush who used to be the street sweeper. He was much quieter I will admit.
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 791
Registered: 04-2008


Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 03:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That was Stan Towers father, I believe.
Back in those days, they didn't need a sweeping machine because they did not put all this sand on the streets. Also, there were much fewer cars.

(Message edited by frosted_flakes on March 29, 2010)
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
Just leave it alone.
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bassman
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Username: bassman

Post Number: 955
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Friday, April 16, 2010 - 12:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This just doesn't make any sense to me. Two Harbors needs all the advertising it can get....

http://www.twoharborsmn.com/event/article/id/20060/
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tom_koehler
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Post Number: 525
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Posted on Friday, April 16, 2010 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, bassman, you're right. We do need the advertising. Maybe this situation will force some meaningful action to improve the situation.
Me an' the Missus have been on a road trip vacation the past many weeks and have seen plenty of city and town entrances and exits over 6,000 miles of travel. Every town with any reason to attract visitors has some kind of help for its visitors at any entrance to its town limits.

We do have a nice visitor center on the east or north side of town, but only this "illegal" sign on the side with the most potential for good advertising. Whizzing into town at 40 mph, you are a stranger wondering what there is and where it is... all you have is this one sign - full of info and no time to study it.

I believe the state has done us a favor and forced us to come up with a better solution. I think a convenient little lot to pull into at that location would be a great solution. Make it easy to get in and back out, have some space for the large RV's which nearly always carry people with deep pockets - and have a well-designed display with all the pertinent information a traveler needs. Don't even need an actual human there, though one would be nice during the very peak of the travel season.

The very worst "Welcome Center" we saw was in southern California. I don't know exactly where we were, but I do remember an intersection labeled Ventura and Oxnard. There was a conspicuous and nicely designed sign informing us of the welcome center, and which direction to go. We followed the signs through a series of about 5 or 6 roundabouts... and ended up back at the exact location where we entered this wonderland maze. Never did get any information, but the directional signs were all there for us, just no indication of just exactly where this info center was supposed to be. In fairness there was a lot of construction activity in the area and we apparently just got confuzzled somehow.

It is great to be back home.
tom koehler
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todd_r
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Post Number: 117
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, April 16, 2010 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think a convenient little lot to pull into at that location would be a great solution.

Thats agreat idea Tom, only one large problem...that property is owned by Mr. Cave.
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homeontherange
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Post Number: 587
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Friday, April 16, 2010 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

After reading Mel Sando's opinion in the Chronny this morning, and the direction of this thread, perhaps it is now time for the city to buy out Mr. Cave. It seems that everyone is standing around waiting to see what Cave will do, and right now it looks like he is just biding his time for the agreement with the city to expire, only to start the whole mess going again. It's like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Buy him out, and then the original plans can move forward. There is always eminent domain to get the ball rolling.

It's time to get off the pot!
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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todd_r
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Post Number: 118
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, April 16, 2010 - 07:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is anyone aware there is a new comprehensive plan underway? It wouldn't be surprising, as the TH Planning Commission operates well under the radar. There is no information about about commission activities on the City's website. ARDC has a webpage dedicated to TH Planning, but you won't find any useful information there. http://www.arrowheadplanning.org/Default.asp?PageID=157 They used to post the minutes, several months behind, but it appears that has ceased altogether. They isn't any audio or video recording and minutes aren't accessable to my knowledge.
Wouldn't the most effective planning occur by engaging the community? I know I would like to know whats being discussed, not after, but before. When I served on the commission, I always thought it was so odd that the agendas were mailed to commissioners several days before a meeting. It would be way easier to email them, but there seemed a reluctance to make the information so fluid. I suggest the following:

1. Post agendas to the city website, or ARDC's TH Planning page prior to meetings.
2. Or allow interested citizens to sign up to receive agendas via email, prior to meetings.
3. Or allow interested citizens to sign up to receive agendas via snail mail, prior to meetings.


It'd be good to have a comprehensive plan this time around that the citizenry feels like they were involved, instead of just being invited to an open house after its nearly ironed out. Its beyond time to bring the process out from the dark. I'd like to see someone bring these ideas forward (to where I don't know), as I don't think anyone there wants to hear from me.
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jackburton
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Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2010 - 08:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well if they are planning new condo developments, they better stop watching CNBC and get a clue about the economy. The second leg down in real estate has not even started yet. Foreclosures and defaults. That is our future. They can plan all they want, the real economy will decide.
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 798
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Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2010 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's the same story everywhere, Todd. Here in AZ, the elected homeowners association will appoint a committee and this group of non elected people will whisper together for a time then they will have a public meeting, not to get input, but rather to tell you just how it is going to be, like it or not.
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
Just leave it alone.
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todd_r
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Post Number: 119
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Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2010 - 07:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually, its not the same everywhere. Look at what they do in Pequot Lakes.
http://www.communitygrowth.com/pequot_lakes/

They post their meeting agendas to the web prior to meetings.
They post the last 7 years of minutes.
Additionally, they have e-mail sign up where you can have pre-meeting agendas e-mailed to you, so if there is a certain topic of interest to someone, they might decide to go to that meeting and hear it out or give some input.
I spoke with these folks (CGI) a while back and they stated they would love the opportunity to pitch themselves to the City of Two Harbors. Due to my personal history with the P&Z, I figured I was not the guy to bring this forward....but somebody else sure could.
I spoke with some citizens from Grand Marais who worked with the Community Growth Institute and they were quite pleased with how they worked with the public.
I can't say for certain if they would be good for TH, but a willingness to be transparent, such that they appear to be, looks like a good thing. ARDC and the City of TH's practice of keeping things nearly secret, should be raising eyebrows. Especially with a comp plan in the works.
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frosted_flakes
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Post Number: 801
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Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 01:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have returned home to find a new crop of stop signs have sprouted.
A tearful/fearful parent can approach our city council members wanting a stop sign and the next thing you know we have a new stop sign put up.
When those children grow up, is the stop sign taken down? No!
If that parent is a renter or a homeowner that moves away, is the sign taken down? No!
Enough with the stop signs already. Look into taking some down.
A city ordinance is needed that limits the number of stop signs in our town. If a sign is put up, one must come down. Enough is enough!
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
Just leave it alone.
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sparky
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Username: sparky

Post Number: 35
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 01:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Walked out the front door in shorts and tee in Maple Grove; in April. Some weather.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1501
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 01:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I dare you to do that up here today!!! Double dare!!!
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1508
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Posted on Friday, May 07, 2010 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

got our utlity bill today and electric was a shock.
There was an PWR adjustment added on of $18.59, so our electric has taken quite a jump, and we do not have a lot of lights on. Guess we will have to consider going back to the old days. Candles and kerosene!
I think of people on such a fixed income, and then water meters come next year!!!!! That won't be cheaper that is for sure.
Where is it going to stop, it isn't..taxes go up, everything keeps going up, except our pension checks!
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 811
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Posted on Friday, May 07, 2010 - 02:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You want to know what frosts my flakes about going on a water meter?
They are going to put you on a fee charging you, from the start, for, lets say, 10 units of water. If you use less than the 10 units, will they credit you for units unused? No. But use over 10 units and you will be charged for each and every one. Now, is that fair? No!
If you go on vacation and use no units in a month; Bang, 10 unit charge.
If they are going to meter water, then you should pay for all units used and only for units used. And as long as I am at it, your sewage bill should reflect for unused units too. Sewage use is directly correlated with water use.
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
Just leave it alone.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1509
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, May 07, 2010 - 02:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

speaking of what frosts a person, you mentioned Sewage, I have lots of flowers and that isn't fair, I water my flowers and my sewage rate goes by how much water was used. It isn't going into the sewer for cripes sake.
I can't write on here what I truly think of the whole thing, they wouldn't print it!!
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homeontherange
Pro Poster
Username: homeontherange

Post Number: 598
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Friday, May 07, 2010 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The city will tell you that they have a formula for calculating the sewer usage vs. the water usage. Why don't they just put a meter on the sewer too?
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1510
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, May 07, 2010 - 04:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't care what the city tells a person, I don't buy it, formula, no way!
that will be next, meter on the sewer, don't give them any idea's please.
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nat_sherman
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Username: nat_sherman

Post Number: 328
Registered: 02-2007


Posted on Friday, May 07, 2010 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

power cost adj line item on our bill freaked me out when I first saw it on my bill. I called city hall and they explained to me that this cost has not changed just the way it shows up on our bills.

Example being:

If using the new billing format you had a 50.00 electric charge on your bill and a 50.00 power cost adj charge which total 100.00 between the 2 line items, under the old billing system your Electric line item would have been 100.00.

We are being charged the same amount as we've alway been it's just showing up on the bill as 2 seperate charges not one charge.

Call city hall to verify, but that's what I was told.
Magna est veritas, et praevalet
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1511
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, May 07, 2010 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did look up past bills, and it does add up, but it doesn't make any sense really. Why change it, simpler worked fine before.
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todd_r
Pro Poster
Username: todd_r

Post Number: 127
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2010 - 08:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did any catch the Chronicle article about two weeks ago? It was the council article and the water meters were briefly mentioned.
A non-identified councilor stated about the water meters, well, we won't have to add on to the sewer plant.
WHAT! For real! Did they really imply, that if we dont start metering water, we'll have to add on to the sewer plant! I remember when Cave was proposing hundreds and hundreds of additional sewage plant hookups for his condo dreams. The valid question was asked, do we have the capacity for all this additional sewage volume?, and the answer given was, Oh yes, our sewage treatment plant was designed for a city of 10,000.

Let me add, I'm fine with the idea of the water meters, though I don't know the specifics of the TH plan at this point. I don't believe we should be able to consume as much as you want of something and expect to have no additional charge. We do have the expense of a new water tower and continuing upgrades at the sewer plant (lets not forget Cave gave us his $300,000 bill for pollution cleanup to add the eq basin)
Lets just have some honesty about why we are doing what we are doing. I remember there was some kind of water conservation component to receiving the grant for the new tower?
Lets hope there is better rationale being discussed at the council than what is being reported in the paper.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1512
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2010 - 08:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes I read that article.
I think the city council better explain that statement, or hope it is explained better.
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 812
Registered: 04-2008


Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2010 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The idea of water meters to make sure you pay for water used and also pay for water not used still irks me.
What would happen if, at the end of the billing cycle, people opened their taps to use all the water they are paying for?
Instead of buying all those meters and installing them, why not use the money to invest in the new technology of putting in an epoxy lining in the sewer pipes to cut down on ground water infiltration? That would be a step toward fixing the problem. Water meters are not a fix. Why couldn't the city buy the apparatus to fix the pipes and have their own people do it. When all the sewers were fixed, the equipment could be sold to another city or a contractor.
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
Just leave it alone.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1513
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2010 - 01:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am totally against water meters, see no advantage at all, the city has a hard sell to convience me it will be for my benefit. Who pays for these meters, we will!
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todd_r
Pro Poster
Username: todd_r

Post Number: 128
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2010 - 02:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We already pay for water/sewer, used or not used. Just like phone, internet, garbage, satellite, etc....

I'm guessing the intent is to charge a flat rate up to a designated volume, and then pay extra beyond that use?
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frosted_flakes
Pro Poster
Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 813
Registered: 04-2008


Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2010 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"We already pay for water/sewer, used or not used. Just like phone, internet, garbage, satellite, etc.... "

I know that Todd. I am just saying that they want meters to make damn sure we pay for water used, it is only fair to not pay for water not used.

Like I said; The last day of the billing cycle turn on the tap to use all the water you are charged for. See how they like every house in town pumping mega gallons of water into the sewage plant all in one day.
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
Just leave it alone.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1514
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2010 - 08:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

anyone I know who has a water meter, said it is not cheap at all!!!!
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todd_r
Pro Poster
Username: todd_r

Post Number: 130
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 01:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just heard from a Knife River resident. To hook up to the WLSSD sewer pipeline is a $26,000 charge, + $800/annual fee, + $60/month. And you need to drill your own well for water.
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jackburton
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Username: jackburton

Post Number: 70
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 03:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I heard that those condos in Larsmont don't have a sewer, they simply pump to a holding tank and the sewage truck runs back and forth all the time with loads to the TH sewage plant. How is that legal to have shore front development without sewer? Was Sam Cave planning something similar on LHP with it's bedrock.
26K to hook up to the sewer. Thank god I live in TH, this town is a bargain!
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frosted_flakes
Pro Poster
Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 818
Registered: 04-2008


Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wonder how much is charged to dump a truck in our sewer. Only thing I know is; It's not enough.
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
Just leave it alone.
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blondie
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Username: blondie

Post Number: 1515
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Todd I don't doubt you, but if they already pay an annual fee and on top of that a monthly fee, that just doesn't make any sense. Ripping off people is more like it.
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frosted_flakes
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Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 819
Registered: 04-2008


Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 05:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

They probably priced it at what a new mound system would cost.
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
Just leave it alone.
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todd_r
Pro Poster
Username: todd_r

Post Number: 131
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 09:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually, in the summer months, the Larsmont condos are able to apply their sewage to the area hay fields rather than pay the city to treat...believe it or not, this is a permitted activity.
septage
http://www.pca.state.mn.us/index.php/download-document/10140-minnesota-2005-pumping-report.html

I can tell you of one person who lives adjacent to one of these fields on the Stanley Road, and is none too happy about it.

As I understand the permitting for that development, it was thought the pipeline was coming to Larsmont, but that never materialized.

Blondie, I agree that situation with WLSSD in Knife River and south, is nothing short of robbery. You can understand why the folks (aside from Sam Cave and Bob Ryan) in Larsmont are fighting the extension of the sewer pipe.

(Message edited by todd_r on May 12, 2010)
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tom_koehler
Pro Poster
Username: tom_koehler

Post Number: 534
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there no way the folks in Larsmont could build a local treatment system of some kind? It would have to be cheaper than hooking up to the Duluth line or having a truck haul it off. There's got to be some kind of combination digester unit and pond that would clean up the sewage. ?
tom koehler
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blondie
Pro Poster
Username: blondie

Post Number: 1516
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 07:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is that what we smelled by that large field on the Stanley Road. Stopped to take pictures of deer one time, and I said, it smells like sewer, it was terrible. We thought someone needed to have their sewer pumped out!!! Little did we know!
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sparky
Regular Poster
Username: sparky

Post Number: 39
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 05:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess I wouldn't pick any strawberries in that hay field.
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frosted_flakes
Pro Poster
Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 820
Registered: 04-2008


Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess I wouldn't pick any strawberries in that hay field.

No chit!!
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
Just leave it alone.
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todd_r
Pro Poster
Username: todd_r

Post Number: 136
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Collect rain water and beat the (coming soon) costs of water consumption.

Rain Barrel & Composter Sale May 22

WLSSD and the Regional Stormwater Protection Team (RSPT) will be hosting a truckload sale of Systern Rain Barrels and Earth Machine Composters from Norseman Plastics on Saturday, May 22nd at the lower east parking lot of Lake Superior College.

The sale runs from 9:00 am to 3:00 pm. Rain Barrels and Composters may be purchased at the sale; first come first served, check or credit card preferred. No reservations are needed.

55 gallon SYSTERN rain barrels will be available for $50/unit (tax included, a value of over $120!) The SYSTERN can be placed under any downspout to collect water for use in yards and gardens. Each SYSTERN is designed with a screen to keep water free of debris and mosquitoes. The SYSTERN is made of 50% post consumer plastic and is a neutral tan color.

The Earth Machine® compost bin will be available for $40/unit (tax included, a value of over $100!). This bin fits in nearly any vehicle and carries a 10-year warranty. When assembled, the bin holds up to 80 gallons (10.5 cubic feet) of compostable material.

Compost turners ($15) and kitchen scrap pails ($7) will also be available for purchase.

For more information call 218-722-0761.
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blondie
Pro Poster
Username: blondie

Post Number: 1526
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 11:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

sounds good, except how about if you don't have any rain gutters, doesn't work then!
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frosted_flakes
Pro Poster
Username: frosted_flakes

Post Number: 839
Registered: 04-2008


Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 11:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Boy oh boy!! This buckle up campaign. You can not drive around town without seeing somebody pulled over by the local law. Buckle up boys and girls.
Two Harbors. Love it or leave it.
Just leave it alone.
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homeontherange
Pro Poster
Username: homeontherange

Post Number: 608
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes! Front and rear seat passengers.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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